Church of God and Saints of Christ

The Church of God and Saints of Christ:

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The following email exchange is discussing the article Church of God and Saints of Christ. The e-mailer's comments are in black and enclosed in "greater than" and "lesser than" signs. My comments are in red.

Exchange #1

>I would like to clear up a few things regarding the Church of God and Saints of Christ. You review the website for the Church of God and Saints of Christ. If was not clear to me when your review was made but I would like to comment on a few things that were said.

I must first start of my saying I found it rather disgusting the exchange of the members of the Church of God and Saints of Christ. I don't believe for one minute you have to resort to insults to get your point across and I will expand on that by saying, they have a lot to be defensive about.

On 11/14/00 someone named Ivan mentioned that the church was founded in 1892 by William Saunders Crowdy - that is very true. There was a split in the church - that too is true. However, the Church of God and Saints of Christ that was the website www.cogasoc.org is NOT a Jewish congregation. We are not Jew and if you read the "Frequently Asked Questions" on our website, it will give you and others an idea of why we are not called Jewish. Yes, I am a member of the Church of God and Saints of Christ - Temple Beth - El and were are different from the people that chose to exchange harsh words with you in the past.

The Church of God and Saints of Christ (www.churchofgod.1896) are an organization that split from the original church (www.cogasoc.org) because of a disagreement with who William Saunders Crowdy left the church leadership to when he was dying. We are two separate congregations with very different ideas and theologies. I would encourage you to visit our website, again, www.cogasoc.org so you will get a better understanding of our doctrine and our reasons for doing what we do, and why we don't embrace the term "black Jew" or "Jew" in general.

I don't want to defend the congregation of the church that owns www.churchofgod.1896 because I personally believe people don't have to defend such a thing, but I would like to offer this too you and explain who William Saunders Crowdy was able to establish the Church of God and Saints of Christ (headquartered in Suffolk, VA) in the late 1800s.

People of color have been (for lack of a better word) tricked into the whole "Christian thing." When we, people of color, were in our native land, Africa, few of us spoke English. We knew not the religion of the Americas. Most of us practiced Judaism (as did Jesus) or Islam, or other religion, but for the most part it was not Christianity as it was known to people in North America.

As you probably know, Willie Lynch (were the term Lynching came from) was instrumental in getting slave owners to use scripture to keep slaves "in their place". Before Willie Lynch, slaves were disciplined, usually killed for reading anything, even the Bible. It only stands to reason that if we couldn't read or speak English when we were bought to these shores, we weren't reading or understanding the King James Bible. Basically, we were taught, out of necessity to pray to the "slave masters God."

Therefore, William Saunders Crowdy (as we say), "bought back the ancient of days." Remember it was the late 1800s and people of color had no stability, had no where to really fit in. They were recently coming out of slavery and dealing with "slave mentalities". They were looking for an identity. Crowdy, enlighten people, both black and white, about the foundation, the old testament. About their roots - our roots. He showed the people that because the characters in the Bible are of African decent (not what the pictures and books portrayed), we have as much right to claim the kingdom of God as anyone else. That they had a right to claim their inheritance as sons and daughters of God.

Crowdy was a Mason of the highest degree, he was not very well versed in the Bible, but through Divine intervention, he was able, in a very short time to establish a vibrate and flourishing church that keep the Sabbath and Passover, among other holiday observances. Prophet Crowdy also had our congregation wear uniforms. The purpose, to have everyone dressed alike so no one would be ashamed to come to church if they were under privileged or poverty stricken. He didn't want anyone to feel too ashamed to come to serve God.

Crowdy knew nothing of the "Council of Nicea" that changed the Sabbath observance from Saturday to Sunday (he did not have access to such research). Crowdy know that the Old Testament was and is the foundation, therefore we do as the Bible says - we keep the Passover throughout our generations. We therefore feel it was through Divine intervention that the Church of God and Saints of Christ was created and has lasted for over 105 years. Furthermore, as passed on to us by our past and current Chief Executive Rabbi's, we are constantly taught to seek the truth, to read everything and to gain as much knowledge as possible about our religion.

We, through study, pray and research, know that although King James may have meant well, Christians, especially the Catholic Church as rewritten history, stole, conspired and robbed to make such it is a world power. I trust that you also know that the King James Bible is a true and sufficient guide for daily living, but is very flawed, and was politically driven.

Our congregation used the King James Bible as a guide, but we also take it for what it is worth and we take into and discuss what lead to its creation and we also discuss how many, many scholars were gathered to make sure it said exactly what the Roman Government and the religious leaders wanted it to say. They attempted to translate the Hebrew scripture. Things were added and many things were left out of what is now called the Holy Bible. (read the dead sea scrolls). We know and understand that things are not always as they appear and that everyone must seek to know God on his/her own level.

One last thing. I know our website (www.cogasoc.org can answer many of your questions - if you have any). I respect your opinion and understand that you are only exercising your right to do so, but I would have to agree with only ONE THING that was said by one of the members that wrote to you. I will agree that the information on a website about any congregation is just that, information. It should be used as a TOOL to get a better understanding of a church or a congregation. But spiritually is usually best commented on after you have "experienced it."

Our congregation is very unique. We are even unique to the congregation of Church of God and Saints of Christ (www.churchofgod1896.com). I encourage you to view our website and gain a better understanding of what we do and why, but better yet come to visit. Ours is an experience like no other.

All religion is MAN MADE. God is spirit and "those that worship Him, worship Him in Spirit and in Truth." Only God knows what way man chooses is correct. I hope you are able to experience the spirit of God in one our tabernacles (we are called tabernacles because church is a Greek word that was not used in ancient scripture) or even at our Temple (international headquarters in Suffolk, VA) at some time in your life.

Again, I am glad for this opportunity to enlighten you (if I did) and I, like all of the members of the Church of God and Saints of Christ - Temple Bethel welcome any all question and comments on our website www.cogasoc.org.

Thank you for your time.
Elleecia
2/28/2002<

Thank you for your email. The info you provide on the background to the CGSC is helpful as I wasn't aware of it. However, I must disagree with many of the issues you raise as they are simply factually inaccurate.

First off, the Council of Nicea did not change the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday. The council had nothing whatsoever to do with this issue. Christians were worshipping on Sunday long before Nicea.

Second, the KJV (nor any other Bible) does not omit things from the OT. The process of textual criticism is used to determine what should or should not be in the text. And the DDS are considered in this process, along many other manuscripts. And yes, a few minor changes have bee made made to modern translations due to the discovery of the DSS. But the differences are not even close to what you seem to imply.

Third, there might have been some minor ecclesiastical influences in the translation of the KJV (such as using "bishop" rather than "overseer," e.g. 1Tim 3:1), but there was no "conspiracy" to make it say what the "Roman Government and religious leaders" wanted it to say. In fact, the Roman Government (I assume by this you mean the Roman Catholic Church) had nothing whatsoever to do with its translation. The RCC had no influence in England at the time that the KJV was translated. England had long since broken from the RCC.

As for OT "holiday observances" like Passover, these, along with other aspects of the OT religious system, found their fulfillment in the NT. It is for this reason that they are not observed by Christians. The Book of Hebrews was written to explain this fulfillment, and Paul tells use specifically the the observing of "days" is not necessary (Rom 14:5,6).

Given the above, it sounds to me like you church is founded on quite a few false notions about Church history, textual criticism, Bible translation, and the relationship of the OT to the NT. So I am sorry, but I simply cannot recommend a church that perpetrates such false notions.

Exchange #2

>Thank you for your rapid response. I have done some much research on why we (the COG&SOC) do what we do. I will say that I come from the school of though that says let scripture explain scripture (We are also thought that in Sabbath School). I can not for the life of me understand how tenets given my God can be wiped away by man (Paul, Mark, Matthew or any other so] called Apostle).<

Paul, Mark, Matthew, and the other NT writers were writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. So it is not "man" that is changing anything. It is God Himself that has declared that the OT "shadows" found their fulfillment in the Person and ministry of Christ as revealed in the writings of the apostles.

> I trust we both agree that Jesus, not once as he walked the earth, took any glory for himself. He always directed the people to the Father. The Gospels "According to"... are just that, Gospels according to someone who said they hear that they said they heard - heresy.<

They're not "hear-say" (which is what I believe you meant to say); they are the Holy Spirit inspired records of the ministry of Jesus. And without these infallible records of Christ's words and ministry we would know very little about Him.

You entire theology of inspiration is faulty. And if your attitude in this regard reflects the COG&SOC, you have now given me yet one concern about the COG&SOC.

>None the Apostles laid eyes on Jesus, yet they tried to quote Jesus' saying and writing.<

Uh? Matthew, John, Peter, and possibly other NT writers traveled with Jesus for 3 1/2 years. Mark and Luke received their information from such eye-witnesses, and Paul saw Jesus on the road to Damascus. You are about as wrong as you can be in your attitude towards the NT writings.

>We, the members of the COG&SOC subscribe to the Religion of Jesus', not about Jesus. I truly think if Jesus was here today, he would be disappointed that everyone is concentrating so much on him, and not the Father.<

[Jn 5:23] “that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.

Jesus Christ is God in the flesh. As such, He deserves the same praise and worship as the Father. So it appears your Christology is also severely faulty.

> Jesus said: Matt 5:17 - Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. God's law was to observe the 7 day Sabbath (Hebrew calendar - not Roman calendar) and to observe the Passover throughout your generations. He did not say observe it until Paul come along to say you don't have to anymore.<

I discuss the issue of the Sabbath in items listed on the following page of my site: Problematic Theologies. I also discuss it in my Scripture Workbook. I'll refer you to these sources rather than repeat myself here.

> In Isaiah Ch. 44 & 45, God is very specific about not giving his praise to another. God said, "I even I am God, and besides me, there is NO savior." He goes on to say later, "I am the first and the last and besides me there is no God."<

Yes, God said this. And Jesus is God in the flesh. So worshipping Jesus is NOT worshipping another god but is worship of God Himself. And with your comments here, I assume that the COG&SOC denies the Deity of Christ and the doctrine of the Trinity. If this is the case, and since these doctrines are clearly and without a doubt taught in Scripture and are essentials doctrines of the Christian faith, you've given yet one more concern about the COG&SOC.

I would suggest you check out the section on the Trinity on my site. Also, see the three chapters on the Trinity in my Scripture Workbook. There are hundreds of verses referenced in these chapters upholding the doctrine of the Trinity.

> If Jesus did not come to destroy the law, then why would he allow worship of anyone but the Father. God is very specific in Exodus, when he gave us the law - the Ten Commandments. He makes it specific that no other God's should be before Him and that He is a jealous God. Many say Jesus was spoken of in the Old Testament. If God wanted to give his praise to Jesus, Moses, or any other Prophet, why wouldn't he tell it to his Greatest prophets? It would make since for God to say "Moses, tell the people not to worship idols, only worship Me, and my son Jesus, who will be born of a so-called virgin and will die for the sins of the world, long after you, Moses have passed away. Tell it to the people so they won't be confused and will have a clear understanding of what I want."

God could have easily given us and Moses a heads up, so there wouldn't be confusion later. God is omnipresent and omnipotent, therefore, He would know that over the course of 5900 years or more (Hebrew Calendar), people would be confused. Why not lessen the confusion of the people by telling us in the beginning, worship Me and Jesus, when he gets here.<

That is a long-winded way of saying you don't like the way God did things. But the fact remains, there are passages in the OT revealing the deity of the coming Messiah. And these are elaborated on in detail in the NT.

> I know for a fact Jesus had NO part in Christianity. That was and is a religion started long after his death. <

[Ac 11:26] And when he had found him, he brought him to Antioch. So it was that for a whole year they assembled with the church and taught a great many people. And the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch (NKJV).

The followers of Christ have been called Christians from the start. And this is what the term "Christianity" refers to. And the doctrines of Christianity are based on what Jesus Himself taught. So your "fact" is not that factual.

>He was a STRICT adherent to Judaism. If was good enough for Jesus, it is good enough for me. <

Yes, He was. And in fact, He is the only One who has ever been able to keep the entire OT Law perfectly. But you are not able to do so. That is why He died for your sins. You seem to have missed the entire point of Jesus' coming.

>Isn't is strange that Mark, Matthew, Luke and John all take about the last supper and it being a part of their Passover observance. They speak of Jesus' impending death. How is that people who claim to follow Jesus don't follow his practices?<

Christians follow His words to observe not the Passover but the Communion that He instituted on that night in fulfillment of the Passover.

>Don't keep the religion Jesus did? Was he not a Rabbi? Just a few things I don't understand about Christianity as a whole. But to be fair, I there are a few thing I am still learning about my own religion.

I suggest getting the book by Helen Ellerbe, The Dark Side of Christian History. It is very interesting and gives us what most of us need, historical background on how and why things are the way they are. Many of us get emotionally wrapped up in religion, and not spirituality. If people research HISTORICALLY, why we all worship they way they do, it may let them understand it little better.<

I have never heard of this book. But if it is a source for your mistaken ideas of Church history, then would say it is not worth the paper it is printed on. I would suggest you get reliable Church history books, such as ones that are based on the writings of the people who lived at the time.

Eusebius's Eusebius' Ecclesiastical History would be a good start. And for a very detailed and reliable discussion, you could try Phillip Schaff's eight volume History of the Christian Church . I read through these volumes years ago, I would suggest you do the same. It will take such an amount of information to divert you from your very wrong conceptions.

> I didn't get your comments on Willie Lynch and the way people of color came to know this Bible, whether is be KJV, translated versions or otherwise.<

I'm not sure who Willie Lynch is or what you're referring to here.

> What I say doesn't make it Gospel, what you say doesn't make it Gospel and what Paul says too, doesn't make it so. <

What Paul says speaking under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit absolutely "makes it so."

>I am sure we can agree to disagree, in the spirit of prophesy.<

We can agree that our beliefs are light-years apart. We do not have a few minor disagreements on secondary issues. We disagree on the most essential doctrines of the inspiration of Scripture and the nature of Jesus Christ.

> I always enjoy conversing with people who are in quest for truth. Knowledge is power and I think that it is important for everyone to have their own little ministry in their own corner of the world.

Thanks, and as Jesus said,
Peace be Unto you
Elleecia
1/31/2002

I would strongly suggest you pick up my Scripture Workbook. Pay particular attention to chapters on the nature of the inspiration of all 66 books of the Bible, the essential doctrine of the Trinity, and on the Sabbath. It is not feasible for me to repeat in an email all of the information contained in these chapters. But you do sorely need to consider this info. In addition, an reliable church history book would also be beneficial.

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