Unfounded Personal Charges

Unfounded Personal Charges

The following e-mail exchange was initiated by the e-mail exchange Shepherd's Chapel. But, as will be seen, the discussion ended up being more about how to deal with those you disagree with than about the subject of that original exchange. The e-mailer's comments are in black and enclosed in "greater than" and "lesser than" signs. My comments are in red.

Exchange One

>Subject: Arnold Murray...

>You're, obviously, a fan of that pampas blow-hard Hank Hanegraaff. Everyone's wrong except for ole Hank, right? Jene Scott is the leader of a cult, Arnold Murray is the leader of a cult, Herbert W. Armstrong was the leader of a cult but not dear ole Hank, hu? Get a grip, dummy!

I'm a Messianic Jew (are you smart enough to figure that one out?) but I also learn from Arnold Murray. In fact, I've been learning from Pastor Murray for about nine years and I still haven't seen any evidence of the lies that losers (like you) keep repeating.

I didn't have to read your whole misinformed site to know that you are a Biblically illiterate fool. Oh sure, I'll bet you can quote scripture after scripture (as it suits your needs) from the English but I'll bet you know exactly squat about Hebrew, Chaldean, or Greek.

You DO know that King James didn't actually write the Bible himself, don't you? *LOL*

You DO know that just because a so-called "scholar" says that certain books don't belong in the Bible that that doesn't mean that he is correct, don't you?

Oh yeah, that's right! You don't believe in God's (Yeshua's) Torah. The Law was done away with, right? All you have to do is believe, believe, believe, right? People like you really crack me up (LOL). Just forget what Paul said about the "meat" of the Word vs. the "milk" of the Word. You just keep on sopping up that good ole milk you baby. (LOL)

"Fifty hours", hu? You've watched fifty hours of Pastor Murray? Well...you're lying. You and I both know it.

You're a fool!

I don't usually respond to such stupidity but after I saw your site I just had to.

When you decide to "get a pair" (as we used to say in the Infantry) and get to really studying God's Word then feel free to let me know and I'll help you out. God's Army doesn't have any room for "powder puff" Christians. He only wants serious students who are soldiers for his Word.

Baruch Ha'Shem
Chris
http://www.geocities.com/hebrew_soldier777/Truth_About_Islam.html
1/4/02<

I don't usually respond to such nastiness, but I will say that just about everything you say about me in your email is incorrect. Before firing off such an anger-filled e-mail, you really should get your facts straight. If you had taken the time to do even a cursory reading of my site you would have known that. But instead, you chose to speak evil of things you do not understand (see 2Peter 2:12; Jude 10).

I would take the time to point out all of the mistakes in your email, but I've found it's useless to try to reason with someone who is filled with as much anger as you are.

God bless,
Gary Z.

><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><>
Analytical-Literal Translation of the New Testament
For the serious student of the Bible
http://www.dtl.org/books/preview/alt.htm
><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><>

Exchange Two

>You call it "anger" and I call it "righteous indignation". I get righteously indignant when I see 'know it alls' spewing uninformed venom in the form of a smattering of half truths mingled with outright lies. I'm holding you accountable for it and I guess you don't like it very much.

Chris
1/6/02<

You're not holding me accountable for anything given that, again, everything you have said about me is false, both in your previous email and in this email. In addition, all you have done is call me a bunch of names and make unfounded charges and judgments of my character. I don't see how such diatribes would hold anyone accountable for anything.

Also, I double-checked the page about Andrew Murray that set you off, and the bulk of it was not written by me. It consists of emails by two people. The first was outlining what she believed were the teachings of Andrew Murray, and the second was saying that Murray didn't really teach what the first person said he did. And I explain on the page why I posted both sides.

So I really don't see what got you so upset at me since _I_ didn't really say anything about Murray. I definitely never said I had watched fifty hours of Murray as you claimed I said. Again, you really need to get your facts straight before flying off of the handle.

And finally, whether what you are expressing is righteous indignation as you call it or sinful judging, anger, and nastiness as I see it, I will leave to God to judge.

God bless,
Gary Z.

><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><>
Differences Between Bible Versions
Translation Principles, Greek Text-types, KJV-onlyism
http://www.dtl.org/books/preview/dbbv.htm
><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><>

Exchange Three

Thank you for toning down the rhetoric. If you had been this reasonable in your first email we could have been having an intelligent conversation from the start.

>That "fifty hours" that I spoke of was, indeed, meant for someone else. I neglected to edit my email appropriately in your case. However, I stand by my evaluation of the information on your site.<

Have you actually read anything on my site other than the page on Andrew Murray? I ask as again, I must remind you that everything you have said about me so far is false, as will become clear as I respond to this email.

>I'll try not to come across as insulting in this email. However, you need to understand something very important. You do not have it all figured out and neither do I. Sure, I have problems with certain doctrines too but I thoroughly research these issue's before I teach against them.<

I have never claimed that I know everything. If fact, in email exchanges posted on my site I have specifically denied as such. I have also said that I will and have changed my views on things when presented with evidence in a logical manner.

Furthermore, if you had checked out the information on my site and in my books you would have known that I have done tons of research on every doctrine I take a position on.

See, for instance, in my Scripture Workbook I cite thousands of Scripture references. The book is divided into 22 chapters with each chapter covering a particular subject or set of related subjects. And for each doctrine, dozens if not hundreds of Scriptures are cited in support.

I would not have been able to put together such a collection of verses if I had not spent untold number of hours studying the Bible.

>I'm not an apologist for Arnold Murray but I do think that he is one of the best teachers on the planet. I suppose that every so-called "believer" has their own litmus test for sifting through the BS and I am no different. But what is your standard? I think that saying that a "teacher should be teaching from the Word of God" is a copout because they all claim to teach from the written Word.

There is, however, one very good litmus test that can be applied. If the teacher is teaching from the Hebrew, Greek, and Chaldean then that's a pretty good indication that the teacher really cares and is sincere. People like Arnold Murray, Garner Ted Armstrong and Gene Scott may not always agree with one another but they have one thing in common. They ALL teach from the original manuscripts and THAT'S what separates them from the bozo's (of which there are many).<

Chaldean (Aramaic) is only used in a few chapters in the Bible so I'm not so sure that it is that essential. But I absolutely agree that knowing Hebrew and especially Greek is vitally important. And learning these languages was the main reason I went to Denver Seminary.

And this relates to one of the "charges" you made against me, that I had no knowledge of these languages. If you had actually looked over my site you would have seen:

1. I translated the entire NT:

See Analytical-Literal Translation of the New Testament

2. I have numerous verse evaluations posted on my site. And all of these make reference to the original languages:

See Verse Evaluations

3. I wrote a book on Bible versions, which is filled with evaluations of how different versions of the Bible translate various passages of Scriptures as compared to the original Hebrew or Greek:

See Differences Between Bible Versions

4. The extensive Bible versions section of my site also has such evaluations of the translations of verses on it:

See Bible Versions Controversy

And while I'm at it, if you had seen the last two items above you would have known how misguided your claim that I know little about the history of the KJV was. And if in this comment you were thinking I was a "KJV onlyists" you would have also have seen how wrong that assumption would have been.

>They funny thing is, is that I've noticed that the more a teacher teaches from the original languages (and encouraging his students to do so) the more he is called a cult leader. But the less that a teacher actually "TEACHES" the more he is revered as a "man of God". This is unacceptable to me and it should be to you too.<

I have not seen this at all. The best teachers I have ever sat under have always studied and made appeals to the original languages. And again, throughout my site and in my books you will see constant references to Hebrew and Greek.

>Bringing people to Yeshua is a good thing and I would never discourage that. But there is so much more to be learned from the Word than just salvation. If Yahwaeh had only intended us to be "saved" then he would not have 66 books (as well as many others) for us to learn from.<

Agreed. That is why I have over 800 Web pages and eight books and eBooks available on my site. I discuss far more than salvation in these pages and books. For instance, only one of the 22 chapters in my Scripture Workbook discuss salvation. Again, if you had actually read my site and checked out my books you would have known how passionate I am in encouraging people to study the "full counsel of God."

>We live in troubling times and it is VITAL that people who claim to be "Christians" get busy in trying to truly understand the Word and quit listening to fools who claim to be teachers.

There ARE other beliefs in eschatology that differ from the mainstream "rapture" doctrine and there are good reasons for why people don't believe in a rapture.<

If you had read my Scripture Workbook you would have known that I do not personally agree with the common "pre-trib, pre-mil, dispensational" viewpoint. But I don't take a stand on what I do believe in this regard. Eschatology is one area where I have not been able to come to a belief on. It is the only subject in my book where I do not take a position on the subject. I simply present the evidence pro and con for each viewpoint and leave it at that.

I mention this to demonstrate that I am not a "know it all" as you charged me with, but I freely admit when I am not sure on something.

>Why am I saying this? Well...it's your soul that's on the line here and you should do everything in your power to try to get to the truth of the Word. Even though people have different opinions there IS only one truth and we (as believers) should be relentless in the pursuit of that one and only truth.

I don't have all the answers but I'm working on it. And you should too.

Baruch Ha'Shem
Chris
1/8/02<

Agree there is only one truth. But people disagree on what that truth is. I present on my site what I believe and why. And I have no problems with people disagreeing with me. I just ask that they consider what I have to say and study the Scriptures for themselves to determine if what I say is correct. And that has always been my passion, to get people to not just read the Bible but to study it.

So we agree on our general attitude towards studying the Scriptures. But I am sure we disagree in many areas on what the Bible actually teaches. And that is fine by me. Just keep studying the Bible.

But what does bother me is when people make assumptions about me and what I believe without actually reading what I have already written about the subject.

Granted, with over 800 pages and eight books available on my site, I don't expect someone to read everything I have written before emailing me. But the assumptions you made in regards to my knowledge, or lack thereof, of Hebrew and Greek, of Bible versions, and of the Scriptures in general were so glaringly wrong that I can only assume you never actually looked at more than one or two pages of my site. For that matter, just the ads for my books on almost every page of my site and the signatures in my emails to you should have clued in on the fact that I had rather good knowledge of all of these areas.

So please, before emailing me again, take the time to actually read what I have written. I do not have the time to repeat in an email what I have already written extensively on. And I definitely don't have the time to correct wrong assumptions about me, especially when these assumptions can easily be corrected by even a cursory reading of my site.

God bless,
Gary Z.

><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><>
Scripture Workbook: For Personal Bible Study and Teaching the Bible
22 Scripture studies on a wide variety of subjects
http://www.dtl.org/books/preview/swb.htm
><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><>

Exchange Four

>Shalom,

Touché, Gary, Touché'! I will admit that I have not read all (or even most) of what you have on your site. But I DO get irritated when I see false information about Arnold (not Andrew) Murray, and certain other preachers, on the web.

And I have to agree with you on your take on the various views on eschatology. None really knows (for sure) exactly how it's all going to go down and it takes a big man to admit that he doesn't know something. Personally, I have spent many years of exhaustive study into the matter and even though I believe that I'm close, I could still be wrong. But that's why I'm VERY familiar with all of the views. From pre-trib to mid-trib to post trib. Will the anti-christ be a pope or will the anti-christ come from the sky in a "chariot of fire" along with several other fallen angels? I'm not 100% sure but I do keep my eyes on the Vatican, Israel, and the sky.

I don't mean to disrespect your education but I don't put a lot of stock in the seminary. I've had the opportunity to have a few email exchanges with Ean Punnet (a radio talk show host who is currently attending seminary) and from what I've gathered from him, he gets most of his education (in class) from commentaries written by "scholars". I think that seminary can hinder a persons understanding due to the bias of certain professors and the commentaries that he learns from.

Now having said that, and not to come across as total a hypocrite, I do plan on getting a degree in Theology and possibly attending seminary myself, someday. Why? Because most people are ignorant sheep and they will only be convinced that I know what I'm talking about if I have a piece of paper that says so. I do not plan on becoming an ordained Rabbi, though. Yahweh's judgment starts at the pulpit and I plan on avoiding that lightening bolt.

But about your books. Hey I wish you the best in that endeavor but I encourage students of the Word to avoid reading books about the Bible. That's like reading a book about an owners manual. Why not just read the owners manual? I'm not trying to be insulting about your business. If that's what you feel led to do then do it and do it to the best of your ability.

But, hey, I do wish all the best in your endeavors.

Baruch Ha'Shem
Chris
1/1/0/02<

Thank you for your email. Just a couple of quick comments to close out this discussion. I do agree that reading the Bible is much more important than reading books about the Bible. That is why one of my books is a very literal translation of the NT. My goal in producing it was to give the non-Greek reader as close of access to the Greek NT as would be possible in English.

Another book is about Bible versions. It is designed to aid the Bible reader in choosing a reliable Bible version while avoiding less reliable ones.

And even my "Scripture Workbook" is mainly just Scripture references that will require readers to open up and study their Bibles.

Now, of course, there are many pages on my site giving my views on theology and other issues, but in regards to them I always encourage people to study their Bibles to determine if what I am saying is true.

As for seminary, as I said, my main reason in going to seminary was to study Hebrew and Greek. And even in theology classes, a good seminary will have you constantly referring to your Bible in and out of class.

That said, although I did learn a good bit in seminary, I honestly feel that I learned a lot more both before and since seminary through my own studies than I did in seminary.

May God bless you in your studies of the Scriptures.

God bless,

Gary Z.

Follow-up Comments

I posted this exchange as I am really getting tired of people making false assumptions about me based on the reading of one or two pages on this site. As indicated, I don’t expect someone to read everything I’ve written before emailing me. But it seem extremely ill advised, not to mention unbiblical, to send off angry emails to someone with a very limited knowledge of that person and his/ her beliefs.

A few verses from Proverbs seems applicable to such situations:
13:16 Every prudent man acts with knowledge, But a fool lays open his folly.

14:29 He who is slow to wrath has great understanding, But he who is impulsive exalts folly.

15:18 A wrathful man stirs up strife, But he who is slow to anger allays contention.

17:28 Even a fool is counted wise when he holds his peace; When he shuts his lips, he is considered perceptive.

18:2 A fool has no delight in understanding, But in expressing his own heart.

19:11 The discretion of a man makes him slow to anger, And his glory is to overlook a transgression.

26:12 Do you see a man wise in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.

And James’ words echo the same attitude:
James 1:19 So then, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath;

Then there are the verses from 2Peter and Jude that I reference in my first response:
2 Peter 2:12 But these, like natural brute beasts made to be caught and destroyed, speak evil of the things they do not understand, and will utterly perish in their own corruption,

Jude 1:10 But these speak evil of whatever they do not know; and whatever they know naturally, like brute beasts, in these things they corrupt themselves.

All of these verses speak strongly against the idea that it is an expression of “righteous indignation” to fire off an angry email to someone you disagree with based on very limited knowledge of that person.

Moreover, it should be noted that I spent most of this exchange trying to calm Chris down. We never really got to discuss the important issues he raises, like his assumption Hebert W. Armstrong was a reliable Bible teacher. I will only say here that the organization Armstrong founded, the Worldwide Church of God, has long since abandoned Armstrong’s teachings as being unbiblical. So his own followers have now realized that he was a false teacher.

As for Arnold Murray, as indicated, I really have little personal knowledge of him and his teachings. All I have done is post emails I have received about him pro and com. I do so as a caution to readers that given such controversy surrounding him, it would be prudent for anyone to carefully investigate his teachings before looking to him for as a Biblical teacher. But I will say that if, as Chris seems to indicate, Murray's teachings are similar to Armstrong's, then I would have serious misgivings about Murray.

And no matter how sound a teacher or organization might be, in no way will it endear me to an emailer’s position if that person approaches me with anger and nastiness. I am finding it more and more disgusting that the most anger filled emails I get are from people who claim to be Christians. Such an attitude is not a “witness” to me, and it is even more of a turn off to non-Christians to see self-proclaimed Christians acting towards one another in such a fashion.

John 13:35 "By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another."

Yes, false doctrine and sin needs to be rebuked. But we are told to:
Galatians 6:1 Brethren, if a man is overtaken in any trespass, you who are spiritual restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness, considering yourself lest you also be tempted.

2 Timothy 2:24 And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient,

2 Timothy 4:2 Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering (ALT: patience) and teaching.

1 Peter 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts, and always be ready to give a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear; (ALT: with gentleness [or, considerateness] and respect,).

Follow-Up E-mail

>Hi Gary,

I just read your email exchange with Chris. have smoke coming out my ears and it ain't holy smoke either! Your site is my favorite Christian site, and I learn from it every time I visit. Thank you for putting it together. Know that for every "Brother" like Chris who writes to spew their Righteous Indignation {which is in his case, obviously fleshly anger, arrogance and hate}, there are thousands who do not write to express thanks for the informative site.

If Chris takes the same attitude of Righteous Indignation with everyone who disagrees with his views, I'm afraid he's in for a really hard life, especially if he tries to actually do anything for God. If he were my only messenger of the gospel, I believe I would reject it. {I'm not a Calvinist==hehe}.

Keep up the good work at DTL; it is appreciated.

Your friend,
Charles
2/4/02<

Thanks for the kind comments. As you indicate, I am sure that more people benefit from my site than are angered by it. But it is the angry emails that tend to stand out.

I am getting used to self-righteous Christians berating me for disagreeing with them. But, as you also indicate, it is the "turn-off" to the Gospel that "indignant Christians" cause that most upsets me. That is why I posted that e-mail: to try to get such Christians to think twice before firing off angry e-mails to people.

Unless otherwise indicated, all Scripture references are from The New King James Version. Nashville, TN: Thomas Nelson, 1982.

Miscellaneous Christian Life Issues Ethics, Spirituality, Christian Life

Text Search Alphabetical List of Pages Subject Index
General Information on Articles Contact Information

Darkness to Light Home Page
www.dtl.org/

Click Here for Books and eBooks by Gary F. Zeolla